Post by Kel-Tec-Innovations on Jun 30, 2013 16:37:58 GMT -8
What would you have done?
If you had a CCW would you draw and fire if the bad guy could be stopped by other means? Are you willing to face the consequences of potential missed rounds striking innocent by standers in a fluid dynamic situation with massive adrenaline? Be interrogated by Police, have your mug shots taken and your pistol taken for evidence and potentially never return? Potentially spend the first night in holding cell with criminals until things are sorted out? Be in and out of court for months to year while they pick this event apart when you had a split second to make the decision? Pay thousands or potentially tens of thousands to attorney fee? Having the bad guys family sue you ? What if the bad guy is a gang member and you just killed one of their homie's or brothera and you got a bounty on you or your family? Can you live with killing someone? Are you and your family able to handle a dramatic change in life? This is California =P
If you answer yes to all those then shoot away.
Just to be completely clear I advocate for CCW and meeting deadly force with the same amount of force. I just want to share my opinions and experience and what I thought gave me an edge to win the fight and other choices of self defense tools to avoid the problems mentioned above. Take my experience and decide if what I did can potentially help you in the future if the fight comes to you.
The Story
At about 3:30am at a gas station (the car was running on fumes, I spent the last 4 hours in a diner after watching World War Z with a couple that was new to self defense and firearms and wanted to protect their two baby daughters, I provide me time to educate others whenever its possible, that was their only free time and they were willing to listen even though they had work in the morning). A shady looking Hispanic male in a grey hoodie walks towards the gas station. When I saw him approaching I already had my pepper spray in my left hand, safety off and was prepared to draw on my right for the taser if I had to. We locked eyes and he turns away and walks around my car starring into the car mad dogging my girlfriend who was in the passenger seat and he walk to the other end of the gas station and disappears. (In my past experience usually this is enough to have robbers leave and pick another target as I was well aware of his presence and I look prepared and confident.)
As I loose sight of him thinking he walked down the street he reappears and heads towards me at a fast pace with an aggressive body posture. We lock eyes again but kept heading towards me, with both hands in his hoodie pocket, he pulls out a long black knife and demanded "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" about 5 ft. away and still closing before he could pull his knife all the way out and raiser it in a stabbing motion I hop back to make distance and side step at the same time giving him a face full of pepper spray. I drew my taser at him, about to give him a 30 second ride of his life but he was already drenched and looked like a smurf with the blue dye and was no longer a threat and took off running. I chased after him briefly just in case he was just repositioning and coming back at me or my girlfriend. At the same time while the commotion happened my girlfriend in the car was about to retrieve her 9mm to back me up. Luckily no shots had to be fired.
Called the police, in about 10 minutes they arrived (yes 10 minutes, national average 8 minutes) While waiting for the Police I talked to the employee and notify him of what just happened. The police arrived and I gave a quick description that the bad guy was blue from the dye and pointed police to the direction he went and they found him not too far, topless and a blue face. Police assume he ditch the sweater which was blue dyed and covered in pepper spray.
They arrested him down the street, they drove me down to ID him, his eyes were swollen shut with blue dye on his face, and also his topless torso was covered in tatts.
---------------------------------------------------
Couple things I learned from this and what I normally preach about to friends.
1. Training, practice practice practice. There is no time for thinking of an reaction, reflexes will be needed for split second action. He was under 5 feet and closing when he drew the knife. So train and practice, moving out the way and make distance. Being static can get you killed even if they had a knife within 21 feet. Tuller Drill
Moving and getting out the way is key to surviving this
2. Be aware of your surrounding at all times, if I was on my phone or doing something where I'm distracted, that guy could easily have had the drop on me. Who knows if he wouldn't take my life over some money even after I give it to him. He wasn't nervous, he had a look and stare of "I'm going to kill you right here."
3. Always have some kind of self defense weapon on you. Leaving it in your car or at home and for ladies in purses packed with stuff, where digging is required won't help you when you need it most. My neighbor female friend found out about the incident and said, "I'm going to start keeping my pepper spray in the car....." :facepalm: How about on your key chain hooked to your pants so you have access to it fast, not retrieve it after you get robbed or raped.
4. Firearm doesn't have to be the first choice *(situation dictates). Pepper spray I can keep in my hand ready to go, if nothing happens it goes on safe and put away, if it does I have it in my hands ready to go, but a CCW I can't draw and keep the pistol behind me fully gripped just cause I think he might do something (brandishing), and if he doesn't and just asked for money I just scared all the sheeple calling Cops that a guy have a gun in front of gas station, then I'm screwed. I also DO NOT want to kill anyone if I don't have to. The amount of paper work, legal fees, police taking my pistol as evidence, bad guys family suing me and living with the conscience of killing someone would suck. My night would not have ended so smoothly if my girlfriend or I fired a shot, it would totally derail my life, my girlfriends, my families, and affect business for the gas station.
If I had to draw a firearm
on him in the same situation and a bad guy had a gun instead of a knife, I would still deploy pepper spray first, while making distance and side stepping. Being able to blind and disable the bad guy while I draw for the pistol increase my ability to take him down while he just lost his vision if not for a second. If things escalates and suspect is still a threat shots can be taken. If I skip the pepper spray and fire two shots hoping I could hit him first not only when he already drew first, the adrenaline in the guy might not have stopped him within 5 feet "Tuller drill". If I was able to put a good shot in a fluid dynamic adrenaline pumped situation his heart explodes, he still have 8-15 seconds to carve me up or shoot back, unless I get him in the brain T-Box or spine. NOT saying pepper spray is like a magic bullet but it sure gives you an edge or advantage when his eyes instantly shuts or brings his arm to shield the spray.
The pepper spray did shut his eyes instantly which is an huge advantage in a fight, even in a gun fight the suspect loosing his sight and pain all over the face and having difficulty breathing, he is going to have a hard time shooting accurately and staying in the fight.
4. Another defensive tool for that close of a distance a taser would drop him instantly vs. a firearm that requires hitting T-box of spine to drop him right there and then in 5 feet distance and closing. I can also have it in hand ready without scaring the sheeple. I had many people ask if it was a cell phone....:facepalm: Also not saying it works 100% but its pretty effective and brings the guy down quick under 5 feet.
Those are my personal opinion and actual experience, flame suit on for the key board commandos and armchair professional experts.
Massad F. Ayoob books
I don't agree with Massad F. Ayoob that you should just give the bad guys money to avoid confrontation. He says wrap some money to a match box or something and throw it to the robber so he doesn't have to shoot them. Really? that just make the robber feel even more empowered to find the next victim. I rather pepper spray the bad guy than condition him that its easy to rob people. Armed Robbery has some good jail time.
Be safe out there, don't be an unarmed sheep. Learn from my experience and be aware of your surrounding at all times!
-----------------------------------------------------
I was hoping to get a copy of the surveillance video but the store will only release it if a sheriff comes for it. I did get an opportunity to snap some quick pictures and video while viewing the video. The video from cell phone of the computer monitor turned out bad.
Pictures start from when he re-approaches me this time with a knife.
He is 5 feet from me with a knife demanding money. He gets sprayed, in this picture his legs are bent and ready to run
He takes off running
The pepper spray( or bomb) was everywhere, my arms and legs were covered and so was the back of the car. I had some mist land on my face and felt some burning on the lips like I ate a hot wing. My mistake was washing my face opening the pores and my whole face and eyes started to burn.
Sabre Blue face Performance
At the site of the spray, looking at the spray pattern left on the floor the spray did a 10 feet spray with an angle of about 160 degree resulting everything covered and a lot of the mist lingered in the air and as I ran through it after the bad guy my arms and legs got dyed with blue dots, and washing it off was not easy and just made it worse in the burning. I would have to say this is a fog cone instead of a stream. It successfully halt the bad guy instantly and when the Police arrested him, his eyes were swollen and blue dye identification of suspect was easy. In court the bad guy attorney could easily argue I ID the wrong guy and that you might get confused etc. but the blue dye and pepper sprayed face makes the argument almost impossible. After spraying that guy my spray a .69oz or 19 grams still has half left. Not that I would keep it and not replace it, but it tells me I can still use it if the bad guys came at multiple directions. Just be sure to clean the spray well, cause mine was dripping blue dye and pepper spray.
Again,
Be safe out there, don't be an unarmed sheep. Learn from my experience and be aware of your surrounding at all times!
If you had a CCW would you draw and fire if the bad guy could be stopped by other means? Are you willing to face the consequences of potential missed rounds striking innocent by standers in a fluid dynamic situation with massive adrenaline? Be interrogated by Police, have your mug shots taken and your pistol taken for evidence and potentially never return? Potentially spend the first night in holding cell with criminals until things are sorted out? Be in and out of court for months to year while they pick this event apart when you had a split second to make the decision? Pay thousands or potentially tens of thousands to attorney fee? Having the bad guys family sue you ? What if the bad guy is a gang member and you just killed one of their homie's or brothera and you got a bounty on you or your family? Can you live with killing someone? Are you and your family able to handle a dramatic change in life? This is California =P
If you answer yes to all those then shoot away.
Just to be completely clear I advocate for CCW and meeting deadly force with the same amount of force. I just want to share my opinions and experience and what I thought gave me an edge to win the fight and other choices of self defense tools to avoid the problems mentioned above. Take my experience and decide if what I did can potentially help you in the future if the fight comes to you.
The Story
At about 3:30am at a gas station (the car was running on fumes, I spent the last 4 hours in a diner after watching World War Z with a couple that was new to self defense and firearms and wanted to protect their two baby daughters, I provide me time to educate others whenever its possible, that was their only free time and they were willing to listen even though they had work in the morning). A shady looking Hispanic male in a grey hoodie walks towards the gas station. When I saw him approaching I already had my pepper spray in my left hand, safety off and was prepared to draw on my right for the taser if I had to. We locked eyes and he turns away and walks around my car starring into the car mad dogging my girlfriend who was in the passenger seat and he walk to the other end of the gas station and disappears. (In my past experience usually this is enough to have robbers leave and pick another target as I was well aware of his presence and I look prepared and confident.)
As I loose sight of him thinking he walked down the street he reappears and heads towards me at a fast pace with an aggressive body posture. We lock eyes again but kept heading towards me, with both hands in his hoodie pocket, he pulls out a long black knife and demanded "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" about 5 ft. away and still closing before he could pull his knife all the way out and raiser it in a stabbing motion I hop back to make distance and side step at the same time giving him a face full of pepper spray. I drew my taser at him, about to give him a 30 second ride of his life but he was already drenched and looked like a smurf with the blue dye and was no longer a threat and took off running. I chased after him briefly just in case he was just repositioning and coming back at me or my girlfriend. At the same time while the commotion happened my girlfriend in the car was about to retrieve her 9mm to back me up. Luckily no shots had to be fired.
Called the police, in about 10 minutes they arrived (yes 10 minutes, national average 8 minutes) While waiting for the Police I talked to the employee and notify him of what just happened. The police arrived and I gave a quick description that the bad guy was blue from the dye and pointed police to the direction he went and they found him not too far, topless and a blue face. Police assume he ditch the sweater which was blue dyed and covered in pepper spray.
They arrested him down the street, they drove me down to ID him, his eyes were swollen shut with blue dye on his face, and also his topless torso was covered in tatts.
---------------------------------------------------
Couple things I learned from this and what I normally preach about to friends.
1. Training, practice practice practice. There is no time for thinking of an reaction, reflexes will be needed for split second action. He was under 5 feet and closing when he drew the knife. So train and practice, moving out the way and make distance. Being static can get you killed even if they had a knife within 21 feet. Tuller Drill
Moving and getting out the way is key to surviving this
2. Be aware of your surrounding at all times, if I was on my phone or doing something where I'm distracted, that guy could easily have had the drop on me. Who knows if he wouldn't take my life over some money even after I give it to him. He wasn't nervous, he had a look and stare of "I'm going to kill you right here."
3. Always have some kind of self defense weapon on you. Leaving it in your car or at home and for ladies in purses packed with stuff, where digging is required won't help you when you need it most. My neighbor female friend found out about the incident and said, "I'm going to start keeping my pepper spray in the car....." :facepalm: How about on your key chain hooked to your pants so you have access to it fast, not retrieve it after you get robbed or raped.
4. Firearm doesn't have to be the first choice *(situation dictates). Pepper spray I can keep in my hand ready to go, if nothing happens it goes on safe and put away, if it does I have it in my hands ready to go, but a CCW I can't draw and keep the pistol behind me fully gripped just cause I think he might do something (brandishing), and if he doesn't and just asked for money I just scared all the sheeple calling Cops that a guy have a gun in front of gas station, then I'm screwed. I also DO NOT want to kill anyone if I don't have to. The amount of paper work, legal fees, police taking my pistol as evidence, bad guys family suing me and living with the conscience of killing someone would suck. My night would not have ended so smoothly if my girlfriend or I fired a shot, it would totally derail my life, my girlfriends, my families, and affect business for the gas station.
If I had to draw a firearm
on him in the same situation and a bad guy had a gun instead of a knife, I would still deploy pepper spray first, while making distance and side stepping. Being able to blind and disable the bad guy while I draw for the pistol increase my ability to take him down while he just lost his vision if not for a second. If things escalates and suspect is still a threat shots can be taken. If I skip the pepper spray and fire two shots hoping I could hit him first not only when he already drew first, the adrenaline in the guy might not have stopped him within 5 feet "Tuller drill". If I was able to put a good shot in a fluid dynamic adrenaline pumped situation his heart explodes, he still have 8-15 seconds to carve me up or shoot back, unless I get him in the brain T-Box or spine. NOT saying pepper spray is like a magic bullet but it sure gives you an edge or advantage when his eyes instantly shuts or brings his arm to shield the spray.
The pepper spray did shut his eyes instantly which is an huge advantage in a fight, even in a gun fight the suspect loosing his sight and pain all over the face and having difficulty breathing, he is going to have a hard time shooting accurately and staying in the fight.
4. Another defensive tool for that close of a distance a taser would drop him instantly vs. a firearm that requires hitting T-box of spine to drop him right there and then in 5 feet distance and closing. I can also have it in hand ready without scaring the sheeple. I had many people ask if it was a cell phone....:facepalm: Also not saying it works 100% but its pretty effective and brings the guy down quick under 5 feet.
Those are my personal opinion and actual experience, flame suit on for the key board commandos and armchair professional experts.
Massad F. Ayoob books
I don't agree with Massad F. Ayoob that you should just give the bad guys money to avoid confrontation. He says wrap some money to a match box or something and throw it to the robber so he doesn't have to shoot them. Really? that just make the robber feel even more empowered to find the next victim. I rather pepper spray the bad guy than condition him that its easy to rob people. Armed Robbery has some good jail time.
Be safe out there, don't be an unarmed sheep. Learn from my experience and be aware of your surrounding at all times!
-----------------------------------------------------
I was hoping to get a copy of the surveillance video but the store will only release it if a sheriff comes for it. I did get an opportunity to snap some quick pictures and video while viewing the video. The video from cell phone of the computer monitor turned out bad.
Pictures start from when he re-approaches me this time with a knife.
He is 5 feet from me with a knife demanding money. He gets sprayed, in this picture his legs are bent and ready to run
He takes off running
The pepper spray( or bomb) was everywhere, my arms and legs were covered and so was the back of the car. I had some mist land on my face and felt some burning on the lips like I ate a hot wing. My mistake was washing my face opening the pores and my whole face and eyes started to burn.
Sabre Blue face Performance
At the site of the spray, looking at the spray pattern left on the floor the spray did a 10 feet spray with an angle of about 160 degree resulting everything covered and a lot of the mist lingered in the air and as I ran through it after the bad guy my arms and legs got dyed with blue dots, and washing it off was not easy and just made it worse in the burning. I would have to say this is a fog cone instead of a stream. It successfully halt the bad guy instantly and when the Police arrested him, his eyes were swollen and blue dye identification of suspect was easy. In court the bad guy attorney could easily argue I ID the wrong guy and that you might get confused etc. but the blue dye and pepper sprayed face makes the argument almost impossible. After spraying that guy my spray a .69oz or 19 grams still has half left. Not that I would keep it and not replace it, but it tells me I can still use it if the bad guys came at multiple directions. Just be sure to clean the spray well, cause mine was dripping blue dye and pepper spray.
Again,
Be safe out there, don't be an unarmed sheep. Learn from my experience and be aware of your surrounding at all times!
. If he is following stereotypes of shy Asians I might know some crazy Kung Fu. lol ;D 
must have be desperate.
I feel safer with another sheep dogs than a 1,000 sheep. 
just point in general direction. 