Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 16:01:12 GMT -8
How reliable are piston ARs other than HKs? HK is the only one I've seen a torture test done on and even that one has come under fire as being faked.
If I for example bought a Ruger SR-556 or any of the other major brands' piston ARs, could I go swimming with it and shoot at targets on the shore when I surface or would the thing blow up in my face?
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hayaku
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Post by hayaku on May 25, 2012 18:45:03 GMT -8
my lmt mrp is a piston gun and it's been great so far... but since stan hasn't held an amphibious assault class, i don't know if my gun can fire coming out of the water
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 19:55:45 GMT -8
Does it stay much cleaner than DI?
I know that DI vs. piston has been debated ad infinitum on various forums, but I'm just wondering where the big plus in ruggedness comes in?
Does it turn an AR into an AK? Seems like you are still dealing with the same BCG that requires TLC.
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hayaku
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Post by hayaku on May 25, 2012 20:23:21 GMT -8
at the bolt carrier and inside the receiver, definitely cleaner. muzzle and gas port gets filthy tho...
overall since my n4 has to run really wet with more oil on the bcg, it collects more crude and is filthier there.
if i had to guess, the piston runs about 25% cleaner overall.
for what it's worth.. i'm been on a non-cleaning movement. non of my tactical guns are getting cleaned again. lol. my pistols, ar's, shotguns... all are running dirty and just adding lube. i'm curious as to when and how they will fail from being dirty.
only downside is handling them.. i tried practicing some shotgun reloading drills and my hands looked like i just overhaul my car's transmission... wifey may make me clean them if she wants to go shooting lol
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Post by Stan on May 26, 2012 8:59:22 GMT -8
My real-world testing with a piston AR was unsuccessful (as you well know S-13) but that was a drop-in kit which supposedly others have had zero problems with.
So I will offer the following hypotheses:
Your rifles (even a piston) normal cycle of operation is dependent on three things; the rifle's mechanics (gas piston, gas impingement, blow back, care/maintenance, age, condition, etc.), ammunition (quality, grainage/powder formula, age, condition, etc.) and magazine (quality, age, condition, spring weight, etc.)
When all three are optimum then you have a winning combo of course. You throw one thing in the loop and you have a single fire rifle. For example; Wolf HP .223 tends to choke my AR rifles every 10-20 rounds, more as it gets dirtier. I am going to hypothesize that this Wolf HP would fail even the venerable HK416. Some people would blame the rifle, "You see, its not so reliable!" When in fact its the ammo.
I used to own a pair of magazines that would fail my most reliable rifle and cause type 3 failures, it was scary. So I eventually threw them out. Again, these mags would probably fail the 416.
I know that most of the big name companies spec their rifles using M855 NATO ammo (which is grossly expensive to you and me since we are talking tens of thousands of rounds.)
First off, this will be controversial: when it comes to AK-47 reliability how many of us have had first hand experience? Probably very few. I don't mean one or two either but somebody in a training environment who has seen all kinds of AKs come through and perform. Everything has been based on years of movies and gun show banter about how you dip an AK in mud and keep going.
My caveat is this based upon a Marine who served with a mobile training team in AFG:
AK-47s fail just like any other rifle based upon the operating triad. Rounds get stuck in chambers (that's why there's a built in rod), casings get stuck under the bolt, piston rods break, handguards overheat, etc.) It's low maintenance for sure and designed that way.
So is a piston AR more reliable than a DI gas AR? In theory maybe because less heat & gases are reintroduced into the action and less lubrication is needed. But within a moderate parameter (one combat load of 7 magazines) when would you see the benefits?
Remember for years the SEALs and others who work around water were using the CAR-15 then the M-4.
Theres a lot of internet chatter about whats being used now. The FN SCAR was tested and liked but from various AARs it seems that many SOF members preferred the HK416. Funding for the HK416 or the FN SCAR came from a different pot under SOCOM. Going with an M-4 block II was the cheaper work around so you could buy other things with your budget and simply use a rifle that would do the job and the M-4 block II could be procured under regular-side funding.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2012 9:48:36 GMT -8
Since I can't afford a gas piston AR, that explanation makes me feel better.
Low maintenance is a definite plus when talking about the AK.
There is also some discussion re. the M-16 mags being inherently failure prone.
I have this idea I'd like to test out re. AK vs. AR reliability: I bet if you secretly replaced all the AKs being used in 3rd World hot spots (Congo, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq) with ARs, most of those conflicts would be reduced to knife fights when all the rifles come to a screeching halt from lack of maintenance.
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Post by Stan on May 26, 2012 19:53:04 GMT -8
Since I can't afford a gas piston AR, that explanation makes me feel better. Low maintenance is a definite plus when talking about the AK. There is also some discussion re. the M-16 mags being inherently failure prone. I have this idea I'd like to test out re. AK vs. AR reliability: I bet if you secretly replaced all the AKs being used in 3rd World hot spots (Congo, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq) with ARs, most of those conflicts would be reduced to knife fights when all the rifles come to a screeching halt from lack of maintenance. Actually, the Iraq Army received M-16s during the transition and the Afghan Army adopted the M-16, SAW and the M-240 GPMG. I did witnessed an ANA soldier take great care of his 240. One also shot one of my buddies in an accidental discharge...treat every weapon as if loaded...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2012 20:21:19 GMT -8
I'm exaggerating a little to make a point. I'm sure with proper training + supervision people will take care of their weapons, but I have a feeling that maintenance is pretty much ignored in certain corners of the world and it is amazing that the AKs in some places take the beating that they do. btw, I always wonder about Vietnam era M-16s still in service in the jungles of Laos & Burma.
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jvv556
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Post by jvv556 on May 28, 2012 4:47:00 GMT -8
Stan, I know it's a little OT but what's ur opinion on the ANAs ability to secure the country after coalition forces leave? Also, do you think much of the training and tactics that they get taught ends up being learned by the insurgents? Actually, the Iraq Army received M-16s during the transition and the Afghan Army adopted the M-16, SAW and the M-240 GPMG. I did witnessed an ANA soldier take great care of his 240. One also shot one of my buddies in an accidental discharge...treat every weapon as if loaded...
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Post by Stan on May 28, 2012 19:03:00 GMT -8
Stan, I know it's a little OT but what's ur opinion on the ANAs ability to secure the country after coalition forces leave? Also, do you think much of the training and tactics that they get taught ends up being learned by the insurgents? Just my opinion but Afghanistan is a big turd sandwich. I would be very, very surprised if after we leave they are an independent, secure, and autonomous nation. For one thing, the Taliban was THE only game in town for over ten years before we got there, we are somehow supposed to convince them to ditch the Taliban knowing that we WILL be leaving at some point not too far. The local ANA (Afghan National Army) commander was at our base and hardly ever left the wire, he often granted himself leave. Once me and some of my Marines were at the locally famous landmark in Marjeh known at the "Yellow School", I got to hang out with the ANA platoon commander and he seemed nice enough but was distanced from his men. I just noticed a big rift between ANA leadership and their men and its so intrinsically deep thanks to differences in tribes, clans, language, castes, etc. There is no doubt that the Taliban have infiltrators in the ANA, again it was the only game in town. Desertions were common in the ANA, I knew of one personally. A Marine informed me of a local Taliban cell that you could tell was using an M249 SAW because of the sound except that he would fire pause fire pause fire etc...he was using the M16 magazine feature because he of course couldn't reorder linked ammo. The Afghan National Police (ANP) is another drama story born of the similiar issues. I've patrolled with them too and it was funny seeing them in our formations with their grey uniforms and AK-47s. Somehow we are keeping the wolf at bay there but the question is for how long? And how much patience does the American public and government have before we say enough is enough? How much can we afford to keep paying the Government of Afghanistan?
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Post by mqd123 on May 28, 2012 21:33:44 GMT -8
Stan, I know it's a little OT but what's ur opinion on the ANAs ability to secure the country after coalition forces leave? Also, do you think much of the training and tactics that they get taught ends up being learned by the insurgents? Just my opinion but Afghanistan is a big turd sandwich. I would be very, very surprised if after we leave they are an independent, secure, and autonomous nation. For one thing, the Taliban was THE only game in town for over ten years before we got there, we are somehow supposed to convince them to ditch the Taliban knowing that we WILL be leaving at some point not too far. The local ANA (Afghan National Army) commander was at our base and hardly ever left the wire, he often granted himself leave. Once me and some of my Marines were at the locally famous landmark in Marjeh known at the "Yellow School", I got to hang out with the ANA platoon commander and he seemed nice enough but was distanced from his men. I just noticed a big rift between ANA leadership and their men and its so intrinsically deep thanks to differences in tribes, clans, language, castes, etc. There is no doubt that the Taliban have infiltrators in the ANA, again it was the only game in town. Desertions were common in the ANA, I knew of one personally. A Marine informed me of a local Taliban cell that you could tell was using an M249 SAW because of the sound except that he would fire pause fire pause fire etc...he was using the M16 magazine feature because he of course couldn't reorder linked ammo. The Afghan National Police (ANP) is another drama story born of the similiar issues. I've patrolled with them too and it was funny seeing them in our formations with their grey uniforms and AK-47s. Somehow we are keeping the wolf at bay there but the question is for how long? And how much patience does the American public and government have before we say enough is enough? How much can we afford to keep paying the Government of Afghanistan? The moment we leave, a civil war will break out and we'll have to go back and do it again in 20 years. That region of the world will never know peace, they've been killing each other since the Old Testament, what makes you think they will stop now? IMHO.
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Post by mqd123 on May 28, 2012 21:38:09 GMT -8
How reliable are piston ARs other than HKs? HK is the only one I've seen a torture test done on and even that one has come under fire as being faked. If I for example bought a Ruger SR-556 or any of the other major brands' piston ARs, could I go swimming with it and shoot at targets on the shore when I surface or would the thing blow up in my face? back on topic, isn't the Sig 516 a piston AR? I've seen one of those tortured tested and it looked pretty impressive. Google it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2012 21:53:47 GMT -8
re. Sig 516, anyone know where you can get a CA version? Has anyone tried one out? Looks like a good choice.
re. Afghanistan - monstrous waste of money to give money to the Afghans. Even the most foolish possible program here in the US would be a better use of money - even if we started giving out free scholarships to cake decorating school.
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Post by mqd123 on May 28, 2012 22:49:56 GMT -8
re. Sig 516, anyone know where you can get a CA version? Has anyone tried one out? Looks like a good choice. re. Afghanistan - monstrous waste of money to give money to the Afghans. Even the most foolish possible program here in the US would be a better use of money - even if we started giving out free scholarships to cake decorating school. Riflegear had it when it first came out. I would have bought it, but I already owned a Sig 556 at the time. I'm kind of happy that I didn't though because I like my HK a lot.
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jvv556
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Post by jvv556 on May 29, 2012 3:30:33 GMT -8
re. Sig 516, anyone know where you can get a CA version? Has anyone tried one out? Looks like a good choice. re. Afghanistan - monstrous waste of money to give money to the Afghans. Even the most foolish possible program here in the US would be a better use of money - even if we started giving out free scholarships to cake decorating school. I hear u on this. Im glad we got Osama, but wasting US tax dollars trying to rebuild a country that is going to surely collapse back into a civilwar is a waste of time. Also, I'm not a genius, but it's pretty obvious that they will use the weapons and training they recieved on eachother once the civilwar starts. I dont know why the US has to be the World's aid/assistance program. Those countries are like a blackhole you throw cash into and never get back. I know Karzai is probably trying to fill his pockets with as much of our tax dollars as he can before the party's over. Same goes for the pakistanis(worst "allies" ever). If u took all the money we wasted on them and gave everyone tax refund, at least the money would help stimulate the economy. Rant over. Sorry for OT.
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