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Post by wsmc27 on Jun 14, 2012 10:47:58 GMT -8
I started going in the direction of tactics/training in this area yesterday in the equipment section. Please use this thread to discuss how you employ your light(s), as opposed to what model mount or torch, etc.  Interested to know how you trainers and students prefer to operate your firearms in low and no-light training? Hoping to train with Stan someday in his Low-Light/Night Tactics 101. My low/no light learning has been with other programs a couple times in 2010, with pistol only in low and no-light scenarios. This including an eye-opening night in a shoot house with a variety of target simulations and lighting. Have to say, it was some of the best firearms training yet in my limited civilian expereinces, and I would encourage everyone who has never done such training to give it a try. Am always learning, hope you are too!  As mentioned yesterday in the flashlight thread, we won't run a wml in our house. Being older (over 50 now  ), with older teen children, I won't change violating the principle safety rule of putting my muzzle on anything/anyone I wouldn't be ready to destroy. Maybe if I was a single man living alone...the wml on pistol would be great? Your thoughts? Another board member asked a great question...wouldn't it be easier to run the gun w/wml in one hand while calling 911 and/or handling/herding children with other hand? Since I have a wife prepped  to handle phone and kids, my hands are free to run the handheld light in a variety of positions learned with the gun in hand. Sorry for run on typing...throwing out our plan, interested to know what YOUR plan/thoughts/expereinces might be regarding hd and low/no light? |
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Post by Stan on Jun 14, 2012 17:13:55 GMT -8
One day you'll have to take low light with me...
The good answer is to have both a WML and a hand-held.
But you can make quick work with a hand held (with pistol) alone as well.
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Post by serpenthammer on Jun 14, 2012 17:48:24 GMT -8
Yups ..agreed on the one is none two is one principle ..cant always point a WML when interrogating an interloper or friendly within the context of a percieved home invasion.
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Post by serpenthammer on Jun 14, 2012 17:51:08 GMT -8
Yups ..agreed on the one is none two is one principle ..cant always point a WML when interrogating an interloper or friendly within the context of a percieved home invasion.
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hayaku
Junior Member
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Post by hayaku on Jun 21, 2012 20:16:37 GMT -8
Yups ..agreed on the one is none two is one principle ..cant always point a WML when interrogating an interloper or friendly within the context of a percieved home invasion. LOL.. my LEO friends tell me over and over about officers getting yelled at for using the wml on their pistol as a regular flashlight... case study hilarity... as for hand held, i found that i sucked at using my weak hand to point the light accurately during stan's class. it was always off to some point or another, but enough residual light was on the target and my sights for me to operate my gun, it however, did not blind the target like it was supposed to. you use the light and dark to your advantage as the operator... as for wml in home defense situation, i would only use a pistol as it gives me a free hand (herd family, dogs, grab stuff, etc). if i point the weapon at anything and flash the light, my trigger finger is still off the trigger. just the light. if it was a bad guy, he should be blinded and unable to react accordingly while i move my finger to the trigger. i had my wife test with a regular flash light on me and me on her. in the dark of our home, ambient moon/street light in some windows here and there, when the flash light is hit on your eyes, you can't move for a bit. i knew it was coming, but i was still unable to react like i wanted to when the light hit me in the face. and of course when the light went out, the operator had total advantage and moved in the darkness while i was still blind. you all should try this with a regular flash light to see if your experience will be the same. |
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Post by wsmc27 on Jun 22, 2012 17:16:14 GMT -8
^^^ just gonna play devils' advocate here IF I was the really REALLY bad guy, having already broke into your home and am armed (loaded gun in hand safety off...), and intend you and any family members harm without concern to my well-being (because I am drunk/stoned/just a bad-a$$ loser, etc)...you point that light at me and I am gonna shoot at (or towards) it even though you are messing up my vision. Yes, you might think I am blinded (and I likely am now) and unable to react, but my finger is already on the trigger (I have NO discipline cuz I am a BA) and yanking on it when you mess with me. Shots fired by me the bad guy first. I might miss? I might not...seems I read somewhere the typical armed bad guy actually practices with their handgun more often the the average leo does.  Thinking that is why (people shooting toward the light) someone came up with that F.B.I handheld position?? I dunno any of the history of the various positions. Probably learning the variety of handheld light postitions, training and getting comfy with them, AND having the wml as mentioned is the all-round best? Interesting discussion imo. Hope you al have a fun and safe weekend. |
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hayaku
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Post by hayaku on Jun 22, 2012 19:33:39 GMT -8
yes that is true, bad guys intent on doing you harm will try their hardest. yes i agree, i could get shot by the bad guy. i could get shot even before i turn on my light. i could get shot before i even got out of bed. but my mindset is, if i am lucky enough to be able to identify a threat and arm myself i won't be going down without giving it my best.
like i said... i tried 2 things, move to hide and pretend to bring my weapon up to fire. but the light made it extremely difficult to point my weapon back in the right direction before my wife yelled bang bang bang (fired 3 times). both times i would've been shot before i was able to locate the source. i was able to see shadows, tables, walls, people silhouette even in the dark. once my wife rounded the corner and the light came on, everything and i mean everything went white. no clue whatsoever on which direction was which. this is with a 200 lumen light at about 20 feet. instant white blindness. in the scenario where i tried to move i just dove to my right but she still yelled bang before i even moved. in the scenario where i tried to point my finger (weapon) back to return fire, i heard 3 bangs before i pointed in a general direction.
when it was my wife's turn, she was much slower to react then i was and i felt i had enough time to aim for the eyeball if i wanted to. granted, this was not under stress and full scripted rehearsal. we both knew exactly what would happen, how it would happen, but not exactly when... even knowing all that, we were both paralyzed for moments when the light hit.
at in-home distances, 200 lumens is a friggin monster to deal with. you can't see anything else. outside at greater distance, you may be able to see a bright light in darkness and fire at the light... but at 20 feet or less, i had no chance of making anything out...
and if you were wondering, i took the top slide off my glock for the exercise. it was just the frame with the light. completely safe with no way of harming anyone other than temporary blinding by 200 lumens.
to really know what this scenario is like, i strongly suggest you all try this with a partner.
also another case point. since i started training with stan, i do not train to fire only 1 shot at the target. i will shoot at least 5 shots center of mass like the hammer pair drill (1 sight picture, 5 shots) then adjust for failure (head shot or other target zone). yes, i realize there may be multiple targets, but i can fire 5 very rapidly now, in the same time it takes to draw and fire on one target. scan and assess after of course.
you definitely need to take stan's low light/night time class. you will learn what works for you and what doesn't. for me, wml is the only way to go...
edit:
i should say, i didn't mean it sound like it was a magic freeze ray and gave you invisibility... it didn't. it just gave the operator of the light plenty of time to id, aim, and fire before the threat could move. after a few seconds when your eyes adjust, you could make out the operator legs/feet silhouette. but by the time your eyes adjusted, you would have been shot already...
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Post by mqd123 on Jun 22, 2012 19:51:13 GMT -8
Hayaku, you got a cool wife. Mine would not spend that much time with me and my flashlights. She feel asleep when I was going through my "this is what you do if someone breaks into the house speech."
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hayaku
Junior Member
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Post by hayaku on Jun 22, 2012 19:55:12 GMT -8
Hayaku, you got a cool wife. Mine would not spend that much time with me and my flashlights. She feel asleep when I was going through my "this is what you do if someone breaks into the house speech." hahaha.. thanks man. i'm lucky that she indulges me and my craziness. she shoots and is pretty good too. she shot my 1911 38 super better than me when we first met. she does fall asleep when i explain tactics or action plans but she will at least try and say "are we done yet?" |
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Post by wsmc27 on Jun 23, 2012 13:41:57 GMT -8
...seems I read somewhere the typical armed bad guy actually practices with their handgun more often the the average leo does. Source: I read this in Tactical Weapons magazine July 2010 article re Gun Fighting Skills. Their reference was a FBI study. This info is avail online, I ran across some of the pertinent points at www.forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=62The study is older then I realized. hth. |
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Post by wsmc27 on Jun 23, 2012 13:56:18 GMT -8
Hayaku, quite excellent that you and wife can train and work together. Well done, thanks for sharing. Mind if I ask, any teen kids coming and going at night yet? Do you think your plan would change if so? ...you definitely need to take stan's low light/night time class. you will learn what works for you and what doesn't. for me, wml is the only way to go... Didn't know if that was a generic "you" or directed toward me. Would love to train with Stan in low/no light. As yet our schedules have not meshed on that one.  Have greatly enjoyed learning from him (in 2012, 101 and 202 both pistol and carbine, CAT 303 and a skillbuilder recently). That said, the hh flashlight techniques Stan teachs ("Harries, Surefire®, FBI, neck index and more" from his site) are likely basic positions as we've received past training in, and per my OP will recommend ANYONE/EVERYONE who hasn't yet done low/no-light seek professional training in this area. |
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hayaku
Junior Member
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Post by hayaku on Jun 23, 2012 22:38:30 GMT -8
Hayaku, quite excellent that you and wife can train and work together. Well done, thanks for sharing. Mind if I ask, any teen kids coming and going at night yet? Do you think your plan would change if so? ...you definitely need to take stan's low light/night time class. you will learn what works for you and what doesn't. for me, wml is the only way to go... Didn't know if that was a generic "you" or directed toward me. Would love to train with Stan in low/no light. As yet our schedules have not meshed on that one. Have greatly enjoyed learning from him (in 2012, 101 and 202 both pistol and carbine, CAT 303 and a skillbuilder recently). That said, the hh flashlight techniques Stan teachs ("Harries, Surefire®, FBI, neck index and more" from his site) are likely basic positions as we've received past training in, and per my OP will recommend ANYONE/EVERYONE who hasn't yet done low/no-light seek professional training in this area. my kids are preteens... 11 is the oldest. but when they are teens, they would know the rules... my kids train in firearms with me. when they are proficient enough, they will go to stan's classes as well. i do want to train all my family members to be able to move as a unit. i meant "you" as the generic you... everyone needs to take the low light class. stan's class wasn't just about tactics.. there was a lot to be absorbed in the classroom portion that was an eye opener as well. |
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Post by serpenthammer on Feb 14, 2013 8:37:40 GMT -8
Hate to sound like an old cliche but I have seen the light during Stan's lo light / no light classes having attended the course twice last year. This training is essential to keeping your gunfighter mojo skills current as fighting in lo light no light scenarios puts added burden on your manipulation skills , equipment carriage , mindset and employment of both rifle and pistol. That being said I would place lights on my weapons and a handheld plus carrying batteries and a small headlamp with red filter on my pouch. That's a total of 4 lights if you intend to be involved in day to night ops.
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), with older teen children, I won't change violating the principle safety rule of putting my muzzle on anything/anyone I wouldn't be ready to destroy. Maybe if I was a single man living alone...the wml on pistol would be great? Your thoughts?
to handle phone and kids, my hands are free to run the handheld light in a variety of positions learned with the gun in hand.
